Interesting Video - Was Dice's Decision on Mod Tools Catastrophic?

[caderbyshire]

Casus Belli gets a mention about halfway through.

[caderbyshire]

Makes me appreciate just how much work has probably gone into creating this MOD, which is clearly the best one out there!!
Hats off to you guys!!
Give it time and you will reap the rewards you truly deserve.

[Fabiolo]

Thank you

[dolphineye]

Thanks

[TekHousE]

This guy is wrong about DICE's 'error'

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That tells you definitively WHY DICE cannot release 'tools'. The reason is there are NO tools as such. DICE simply have not invested money into creating them in this way. There is in effect, nothing to release.

Kalms from DICE already tells you why in that link above. The situation with the soft and middleware that DICE use now is in no shape to be provided to the modding community as a set of tools. I know it is a long post, but if you really READ it all, and even with a basic understanding of what it takes to create maps, scripts, models etc., you will have to agree that the DICE devs have a less than 'rosy' time of things in creating content for BF3.

I am not defending DICE, in fact I am known to them as quite vocal and anti EA and DICE on their forums.

But the fact is if Kalms says it would cost an estimated 1 million dollars PLUS to get their current content dev workflow into good enough shape to be called a set of 'tools', that is the final nail in the coffin!

It's never going to happen. EA own DICE, they are in the business of extracting every last cent from their customer base, and investing more than a million bucks into releasing tools is not even close reality for them.

Sorry folks.

[dolphineye]

Yeah, and I read somewhere that the Frostbite engine was built upon certain technologies that prevent it to be open to mods.

And also I have been told that the assets creation process is too complicated and too resource consuming for amateurs;

[5hitm4k3r]

I think, that the tools are allready there to create for instance maps etc - and they will have their plugins to import models into the game. When you look at all the BF titles and the maps, you can clearly see the sanbox design. This also applies for titles like BC2. I think there won't be much difference from using Battlecraft to create a map for BF1942 and using the tool, which is used to create maps for BC2 for instance. Only problem is, that DICE is a part of EA and with BF4 in mind and the DLC's for BF3 they won't spent one little chance, that the players stay with BF3 longer than needed or that the players will be able to get free content. Infact they want as many players as possible to ship over to BF4, when it is released or to buy BF3 DLC's. To increase the longevity with mod tools simply doesn't fit into their business plan. There was shown some footage of the creation of Strike at Karkand for BF3 some time ago before the initial release of BF3 itself. The editor structure looks still the same as in the times of BF2/Bf2142 or BF1942/BFV.
You have to be a little bit naive, when you believe all the stories told by DICE. If you ask me, DICE has already created the tools simply to make their own workflow easier. Only thing that matters is the money you loose/risk, when you publish the modding tools and risk potential customers for future titles.

That's called "planned obsolescence" - developers nowadays try to shorten the lifetime circles of their games like in every other industry. Thatswhy they implement ranking systems. After the highest rank most people will stop playing the game because the mechanics are poorly designed and there is no objective anymore. Game mechanics get easier and easier and without these shiny graphics and bling bling people would be so damn bored after several hours. Just compare CoD-United offensive and MW3 and you know what I mean. Or simply compare BF3 and BF2. Everything gets simplified to please the last potential costumer out there. Thatswhy they develop DLC's. If you buy a DLC for BF3, you just gather a pack with some new half assed maps and  - most important - you will get some new weapons to unlock. Thatswhy people will buy it. I always read something like: "I won't play the maps anyway, but I am just interested in the new weapons" -> 10-15 easily earned bucks for EA/DICE.

Finaly it's the duty of EA to "look at the money" - but what they forget is, that the modding community is something like a school for future programmers and that the overall quality of their products gets worse and worse. Not to forget, that game franchises loose their own spirit. Atm MW3=MoH=BF3  

When I look at the maps designed for CB, I actualy ask myself, what the hell these guys in Stockholm are doing? Since BF2 they haven't created one proper map and I get even more impressed by so called "hobby programmers" like Fabiolo and Dolphin and all the other guys behind CB. Because they seem to be the professionals here.

... and sorry for this wall of text, just some thoughts  

[TekHousE]

Yep, none of that really applies to the current situation for BF3.

In a nutshell..

Mod Tools for BF3= NO!

Mod tools do not support micro transactions and the overall idea that EA has to beat Activision at the COD style game.

[oO Para Oo]

Dice will release mod ability once their DLC plan is over. Why would you buy official dlc if you can make your own? obvious...

[TekHousE]

If only they would do that, but its a definitive NO on mod tools for that game.

If you had a business and it would cost you a million USD plus to release mod tools, with nothing coming back, would you do it!?

Now, think about a LISTED company like EA, who owns DICE, they are accountable to their shareholders.

This is never going to happen. I own 3 companies myself, And have sat on boards of many more. purely from a fiscal standpoint, this is a pipedream of a few guys who MIGHT, and I mean might, make a mod if tools were released.

[5hitm4k3r]

Dice will release mod ability once their DLC plan is over. Why would you buy official dlc if you can make your own? obvious...

That's nothing you can judge in general, because wether I buy a DLC/Add-On or game is a matter of the quality and not only whether there are free alternatives. Take BF2 Special Foces for example. This was a hell of a DLC and I would buy it again. All the weapons, maps, factions, tools and what not. At the end DICE would have to create better content and they simply know that. How can a studio, that built a map like Kubra Dam, create such a crap like Op Metro. Just watch a gameplay video and you get the stupidness of this map. Now with the current state of BF3 they simply play Monopoly and there isn't a danger of rushing out stuff. If there were modding teams, they would have to rework their quality controll.

[Aethelwulf]

I never understand how we PC gamers always harp on about how they don't care for us and that the console market is their sole goal yet when the discussion of "why haven't they released mod tools" comes up we are awfully quick to pin it on DLC. Which just doesn't really stack up.

If the main market for them is consoles then they know for god damn certain that five million gun toting console players are going to buy DLC in droves because they can't get mods. On the PC to be fair if the DLC is good enough and reasonably priced most of us will buy it. Hell I know I will, I may be disappointed with BF3 but I still play the bugger, it's still a "good" game. It's just not what I wanted from the next instalment in the franchise. But to argue then that they wont release mod tools on PC because they want to make us buy DLC? That's silly, by releasing both DLC and mod tools surely they win both ways.

Take Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3 for example, they launch on all platforms, PC get mod tools damn near to release and they release DLC on all platforms, what happens? We buy the DLC in droves because it's quality new content and we download mods in the masses. We play the games for bloody years until the next comes along.

Surely then it's a win win model to do both tools and DLC, so perhaps there is some truth to DICE's claims and we should be questioning further why they haven't done it instead of harking back to age old conspiracy theories of the evil cooperation's man.

[evilhackman]

Yeah. But the difference is: In Skyrim and Fallout 3 they sell story. Cutscenes and all that crap. New dialogue, new characters, all stuff that really takes a big team effort.
In BF3 they will mainly sell maps (and some crappy new weapons). But maps are what any modder could easily do, with the existing assets. Look at CoD Map-packs for an example. No one would buy that crap if there were good community maps. That's why there are no map editors for those games. I bet even consoles can run community maps (no need for mods).
[I should check L4D2, and how it's done there. ANd Portal 2. Guess they both ahve community maps even on consoles?]

[Cavali3r]

Dice will release mod ability once their DLC plan is over. Why would you buy official dlc if you can make your own? obvious...

I don’t know what planet you’re living on. Perhaps earth a decade ago and then I “may” be inclined to agree with you. But aren’t we talking about modern day capitalism?

If-so, isn’t it quite obvious that corporations are there to make money? And in this day and age, often without concern and regards to the general public, corporations will make money anyway they find possible, even if this means breaking the law, reaping the profits, and then getting a slap on the wrist by way of fines which are by no means a burden or loss to the company in question considering the amount of profits they’ve made.

Anyway, to my point.
Lets’ take a common product for example (not a game/ game publisher or anything of the like)
OK, a “pot” for example. Every household has them and uses them.
How long has your “last” pot lasted?
I would guess, perhaps 2 years.  (And for the French audience, no I’m not talking about Le Cresuet and other high quality cookware you produce).

So why does your pot only last 2 years? –simple it’s designed to do so, so that after 2 years you will buy another. [Hint, Hint, Hint]
It’s not the case that they cannot produce a pot that lasts 10-20 years, it’s a corporate profit making decision to make it only last a certain amount of time such as 2 years.

This is exactly the same strategy as the majority of big modern day titles/publishers.

[TekHousE]

I have Le Cresuet and also Swiss Diamond cookware..But I DO get your point.

Of course you are correct. Before I had my own companies I used to work for GM in Quality Assurance.

I can tell you without a doubt that cars, no matter WHAT car, are being built with a very obvious lifespan.

Games of course are the same. I can bet that DICE do not have many people working on BF3 anymore. Trust me, it they will all be re allocated to new projects by now.